WinxTalk Podcast #4
Sep. 15th, 2006 06:04 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
spiderbraidsComing later this morning (US time), a little bit of nitpicking, some comparisons between fairies and witches... and a whole lot of analyzing W.i.t.c.h.'s failure in the US.
ETA: Alright, so I got sidetracked by stuff like ironing... and sleeping. But anyways, here's the new podcast. It's my biggest one yet, at 5.75 MB and 25 minutes of talking, most of which is devoted to the topic of W.i.t.c.h.'s struggles.
ETA2: The thread announcing this podcast was deleted from the winx_club community. Currently reposting, and explaining myself.
ETA3: So I'm banned from posting (and viewing, too). Here's the explanation for myself...
So, yesterday I posted up my latest podcast, as well as another thread about ironies I've seen in Winx. Both posts got deleted fairly quickly. I do admit that the ironies thread may have sucked, but with this podcast, I do have some explaining to do (in light of a few emails I got).
Namely, that in the W.i.t.c.h. discussion, I'm merely reading out other peoples' opinions on the problems with W.i.t.c.h. I'm not the one who's saying that 4K's in the toilet, and I'm not the one who's saying that Winx is a show with an inane storyline (I certainly would never say those). The only thing that's 100% me is the bit at the end where I nutshell on what's plaguing W.i.t.c.h.
And I also apologize that the podcast still suggested taking the Sept. 30 start date with a grain of salt... at the time, the promo hadn't aired yet.
ETA4: In light of all the problems I've gotten into with this podcast (plus one extra LATE news item), I have revised this podcast to apologise to everyone I've offended.
Transcript (With apologies to anyone whose feathers I've ruffled)
Ladies and gentlemen, I have some terrible news to report. The day after I originally posted this podcast, I was banned from LiveJournal's winx_club community over several issues. One of these was quoting other people without permission. I personally believe that it is fair game to do so, but I am willing to ask for permission to quote from now on.
Now, enjoy the podcast.
Hello, and welcome to WinxTalk Podcast No. 4, with your host SpiderBraids. Today's topics: A little plot nitpicking, how fairies and witches are different, and the elephant in the room that is W.i.t.c.h. Plus, as usual, news from the Winx world. All this coming up on the podcast.
First, we nitpick Tecna-Avalon. In "Angel of Doom", Tecna was suspicious of Avalon, and shot a Truth Orb at him. While Avalon looked the worse for wear, no dark secrets were revealed. This is part of the aftermath...
[2x09: FG to Tecna: "As hard as this may be for you to accept Tecna, your logic was flawed, and you and your friends owe Prof. Avalon an apology"]
As hard as it is to accept Tecna's logic being flawed, it wasn't the only thing that was flawed in this storyline. It's what surrounded this that was flawed. Let's review, shall we?
First, the spell that Tecna shot at Avalon. Its very nature is that it's designed to reveal an enemy's true nature. Since Prof. Avalon was later revealed to be a fake, it should have revealed that. Also, by the time the episode aired in the US, some of the more astute fans already knew Tecna was on to something, and some of those who didn't still did believe she was right, and of course she was.
Second, after making quite a deal out of the Truth Orb and its nature, they never showed it working as intended. First Palladium stopped Amaryl's demonstration shot from hitting Stella, and then there was Tecna's shot at Avalon. I don't know about you, but when the show gives this much attention to the introduction of a brand new spell, I'd totally expect to see it in action.
Lastly, there's also the issue of Shadows in Bloom, about half a season later. In that episode, Avalon sent Bloom on an astral journey, and it ended with Dark Bloom taking the Codex piece to Darkar's minion. And yet nobody suspected Avalon at all. That includes Tecna, and I thought she'd be thinking, "So, Avalon sends Bloom on an astral journey, and she ends up giving Darkar another piece of the Codex? Maybe I was on to something..."
Lori has mainly addressed the first issue. In an email, she wrote: "It's very possible that Tecna performed the truth orb spell wrong, especially being that she was under a lot of pressure and stress. The girls aren't infallible, after all."
I personally disagree with this opinion. The spell looked very successful. Of course, Lori will probably listen to this and reply, "Well, the witches' Dragonfire trap in Magical Reality Check looked very successful, and Bloom's protection spell on Kiko in that same episode looked very UNsuccessful, and you know what happened then" :\ And of course, there's also the 2nd issue I brought up. Which Lori has addressed thusly: "As for your rule, the spell was effective when Amaryl performed it, so it was effective once before Tecna's mishap. We just didn't see the effects thanks to Palladium stepping in."
Which is pretty much begging the question, if you ask me.
Lori has never addressed the third issue, but over at the Toon Zone Forums, The_Magick_Hat has written thusly: "Frankly, I'm surprised that no one else was suspicious of Avalon until the Big Reveal towards the end of S2. Almost every interatcion with him resulted in something bad happening. You'd think at least Tecna would have retained her original suspicions of him, but then again her accusation of him being wrong was a real blow to her."
Which is pretty flimsy, if you ask me.
snapes_angel wrote: "I wondered about all three points, too. I mean, since they were screwing around with the episodes anyway, since they futzed around with the translation, then mixing the continuity and putting this episode a bit later in the sequence would have made more sense. That is, considering Tecna's suspicions here and her lack of them later. I mean sure, the image of a scorched Avalon was funny, but they don't even mention anything about the spell-casting being skewed."
Now that snapes_angel has mentioned this, I should note that the original version sidesteps at least two of the issues. First, the spell Tecna flung at Avalon was mentioned as being a Plasma Sphere, thereby sidestepping the first two issues. Also, the third issue is at least partially sidestepped. Where Americans hear FG telling Tecna that her logic was flawed, most of Europe heard FG telling Tecna that the well-known prophecy Tecna had based her actions on was written by a comedian, and she adds that just because it's well-known doesn't automatically make it true. That would have given the writers an excuse (a less flimsy one, if not by much) to not make Tecna suspicious again.
Incidentally, like the Truth Orb, neither the trap for the Dragonfire nor the Kiko protection spell existed in the original version of that episode. As Tecna might say...
[2x09: Tecna to FG: "Just coincidence? I think not!"]
Your mileage may vary, and if you've got your own two cents to chip in, reply to my podcast thread. 'Kay?
[1x09: Stella: "Boring, new topic!"]
The 2nd topic of the day is the differences between fairies and witches.
We start off with the REALLY obvious ones. Of course, they have different types of magic, and how they were born is different. Witches go to Cloud Tower. Fairies go to Alfea.
Also, fairies use wings to fly, while witches just levitate around.
Fairies have full-fledged transformation sequences and battle outfits, while the Trix seem to be the only witches with battle outfits.
Now, we get into more specific things...
Fairies got lots of screen time during the season 1 battles, while the witches didn't get any, and of course, I addressed this in Podcast No. 2.
Fairies have convergence magic, and it relies on harmony and cooperation. In other words, working with each other. As for the witches, Flora once asked Griffin why the witches don't pair off in class. Grif replied "Team members can betray one another. So a witch trusts no one but herself."
Of course, Lori has argued that the Trix tend to work together often, and has cited the MegaTrix from the season 2 finale as an example. Still, that comparision makes this next one pretty ironic...
When the fairies had different ideas to defeat the witches at the Cloud Tower spire, they ended up blowing themselves up.
When the witches had different ideas to get rid of Timmy and Sky in the resort realm, they decided to use all their attacks at once. The only reason that attack failed was because Helia showed up.
And I know this one doesn't generalize, which would be pretty ironic considering the nature of these, but it was too good to pass up...
When Musa had a grudge against the witches who attacked her in Spelled, she took it up on random witches who weren't even involved.
[Clip: 2x17: Musa's accusation]
I have many opinions about that scene, none good, but the one most relevant to this discussion? Musa was being extremely racist.
But when Stormy had a grudge against Musa, she didn't take it up on the other fairies, or even the other Winx, she just took it up on Musa (and her dad). At least she knew whom to target.
Obviously there will be more differences than just these. You can post in the relevant thread at the Winx community if you're a member, or you can just post at the Podcast thread at my journal.
[News sting]
And now, news from the Winx world.
Last podcast, I reported that the Winx were getting new powers called Enchantix. The official site winxclub.com has a good picture of Bloom in her Enchantix, plus a new villain for season 3. His name is Baltor, and according to Lori, "He looks like he was in something...something with vampires." Hint, hint? Also, just before press time, winxclub.com has updated with Flora's Enchantix form.
As for when the new season will start, there are conflicting reports. As previously reported in the last podcast, the new season should start in mid-November. However, a thread at the 4Kids.TV Forums says that it'll start on September 30th. This news should be taken with a grain of salt however, because the poster does not cite his or her sources, and a September 30th start would preclude finishing off the reruns of the current season... although Michael's Favorites has noted that 4Kids.TV has run a promo saying that the new season will start this fall.
Less than a day after the original posting, 4Kids.TV ran a promo setting the new start date for September 30th. The promo showed Musa in longer pigtails, and that would make a good topic for my next 'cast.
A reminder of the last stops on the Feeling Groovy Tour, on Saturday 16th September: Crystal Mall in Waterford, Connecticut. Emerald Square Mall in North Attleboro, Rhode Island. Montgomery Mall in North Wales, Pennsylvania. Great Lakes Mall in Mentor, Ohio. Haywood Mall in Greenville, South Carolina. And Miami International in Miami, Florida. All events are from noon to 3pm.
And that's news from the Winx World.
[News end]
[W.i.t.c.h. theme]
"Why are you playing the W.i.t.c.h. theme song?" you might be asking. Well, our last, and biggest, topic for today is the elephant in the room that is W.i.t.c.h. Like Winx Club, W.i.t.c.h. is also a magical girl property from Italy about five girls with magical powers. Although the similarities tend to thin out after this point (for example, W.i.t.c.h. started out as a comic book, rather than animated), it's enough for many W.i.t.c.h. fans to accuse Winx of being a clone. In a recent thread at the Toon Zone Forums, there have been fears that the animated version of W.i.t.c.h. might be cancelled after two seasons, due to ratings problems, and many fingers are being pointed in various directions. One of them is pointing to Winx coming out first in summer of 2004, with W.i.t.c.h. coming out early the next year, thereby taking a huge chunk out of the potential audience. However, many, especially Winx fans, are keen to point out other factors that have contributed to W.i.t.c.h.'s struggles.
Here's a sample of the opinions at the Winx community...
Disclaimer: The following consists almost entirely of me reading out comments posted by other people. To all whose comments I've read, I apologize if I offended you by reading your comment without permission. Also, some of the comments actually disparage Winx, or 4Kids. While I occasionally disagree with some of the edits they've made, I respect that 4K is the main reason this show has a following in the states, and I would never badmouth them, at least when it comes to Winx.
alisonchainsv1: "Well, first off, W.i.t.c.h. was originally aired on Saturday Mornings here as well as cable. Secondly Disney has done a HORRIBLE job promoting their show, while 4Kids has done wonderful at promoting Winx.
You can't go in to Toys R Us with out finding several great Winx Dolls. But you won't find ANY W.i.t.c.h. dolls. Anywhere. Not even the Disney store sells them anymore.
I think that's what it all boils down to. They've just done a terrible job handling it here in the US. You could have the best show on TV, but if it's not promoted properly, no one will watch it and it'll get cancelled."
Lori: "If two shows are good and not on at conflicting times, kids will watch both. It seems silly to blame Winx.
The dark vs. light issue might be a factor. I haven't seen enough W.I.T.C.H. episodes to truly judge.
The channel might be a factor, too. Not everyone has a form of cable. I don't. If it was still on a normal channel, I'd be watching it.
But in my opinion, the biggest problem is how much they changed the show. The books were out in the US for quite a long time before the 1st season started. Kids aren't dumb. They knew the way things were supposed to be, according to the books. Throw this show at them with a lot of major changes and they might not like it. I know I absolutely despise some of the changes. (Blunk. WTF is that sh!t?) Older fans might be able to accept the changes and view the show as its own form, separate from the books, but young fans may not be able to do this. Hell, I have trouble with it! I plan on buying the series on DVD and watching it all to really formulate an opinion on it. I liked some things about it, but hated others."
dreaming_faerie: "I think it's marketing. What has Disney done in the U.S. to show W.I.T.C.H. off? Nothing. I heard of W.I.T.C.H. from a friend after she lent me some comics. Oh, and McDonald's, but kids may not have an attention span to research enough about the series. They're say 'Ooh, cute,' play with it for five minutes, then dump it in the toy chest.
Now, while 4Kids is still in the toilet, it's still doing a good job of marketing Winx. And Winx again gave 4kids a bit of profit from thier last report.
Its not of light and dark and all that, but think about this; when you go into a Wal-Mart or Targets or Toys R Us (well, in the U.S. anyway), what toys do you see in the isle? Winx! No W.I.T.C.H. Disney Stores don't even carry W.I.T.C.H. dolls. If Disney marketed W.I.T.C.H. better, it may have a chance, but Winx was (and I say was because it wasn't on this past Saturday) on at a decent air time and dolls are out, right across from Bratz dolls, where kids can look and want. And there are commericals for Winx.
Also, there are Winx DVDs and gummis out there still. Winx is out there and it has a name. W.I.T.C.H.? Nothing."
stormyserenity: "The reason I don't like the W.i.t.c.h. cartoon is because the art isn't that good. The comics are gorgeous, the cartoon... not that good! It's also darker not in story tone but in coloration on the screen. Also the channel it's on is set to some other time zone than the one I'm in so the commercials don't match and it's not in the TVguide so I never know when it's on and can only catch it by accident! If I could tell when it was on I'd probably watch it.
And I agree, Blunk should not be there and Caleb needs his face-marks back, at the very least. When he turned up playing a guitar in that one ep my suspension of disbelief cracked soooo hard. -_-
(and.. ok honest, I've never got over the disappointment of the theme song not being the one I liked so much on the website. Dumb but true.)
I do still buy every W.i.t.c.h. book, comic and whatnot the moment it hits the bookstore. =) I'm totally a fan. Hooray for magical girls!"
beruche: "- Cable. I just now got cable and have lived 16 years without it. Winx is on regular stations.
- Appeal. You're right - Winx is brighter. The dark colors and such tune kids out and make them declare, "This is boring!" even if it's not. (Been there with kids while W.I.T.C.H. was on.)
- Changes. The older fanbase wanted them to follow the books.
- Copying. I know neither show copied each other, but there are US residents who still think Disney is being unoriginal.
- Characters - Or Lack Thereof. I simply don't find the characters as likable, do you?
- Marketing. The best they did was McDonald's. Do you really want to know where McDonald's toys end up? Hey, I know kids. I remember my sisters McDonald's day and I've seen the adventures of Young Boys and McD's Toys.
Hm. I know more violent kids than you probably do. But the case is still the same."
The original Toon Zone Forums thread goes deeper into the issue.
Disclaimer, part two: Since permission will now be required to quote other people, this may rule out quoting from Toon Zone Forums in subsequent 'casts.
Tommy Lawson: "Well, after noticing the reduction of W.I.T.C.H. to just two airings a week on weekend mornings on Toon Disney's Jetix block has really got me thinking if Disney is ready to just flat out give up on the whole W.I.T.C.H. property in the U.S. entirely. It certainly seems that way based on a lack of merchandise in the U.S., most notably two things IMO- no DVDs of the show being released, and a Game Boy Advance game not out in the U.S. Four Kim Possible games have been released in the U.S. to this point by Disney, 3 for the GBA, and one for the Nintendo DS, but yet, they can't even get out one W.I.T.C.H. game to place right next to the Winx Club game by Konami?
The 10:30 a.m. weekend time slot reeks of a "We're showing this show only because we paid for it, and we've got to show it some time" mentality. If they really were so confident in its success, a prime time airing of the show would be far, far more likely. Right now, it seems like it's in a newly created "Jetix Clearance Bin" just waiting to Disney to show the remaining episodes before giving up on it.
Right now, I feel like nicknaming the W.I.T.C.H. TV show "Disney's She-Ra" because it definitely resembles that show in more ways than one - some of its themes are similar, both TV shows had the challenge of having to appeal to both a boy and girl audience simultaneously, both had merchandising challenges (and in W.I.T.C.H.'s case, virtually non-existent merchandising here in the U.S.), and W.I.T.C.H. right now seems destined to share a similar fate as She-ra here in the U.S. - a good TV show, but still not enough to make the merchandising line a success."
Freedom Fighter: "...it was harder to market W.I.T.C.H. in America for another reason... who they were aiming for as an audience. While normally trying to get both guys and girls (while Winx focused on girls alone) should yield a higher viewership and thus higher ratings, and in turn, bigger merchandising potential... well, despite the fact that the show is gender-neutral, most people who were to make an observation on the show based on pictures and screenshots alone wouldn't see that. They'd think W.I.T.C.H. is supposed to be girl-friendly, especially with five female leads. Sure, the Guardians are like the Winx girls in that they're obsessed with their looks and they're boy crazy, but the comparisons stop there. W.I.T.C.H. was hurt because their potential ratings share was hindered by being on smaller networks, the 'girly stuff' took a backseat to the action most of the time, and it was considerably darker pallette-wise. If anything, most girls love bright and colorful, not dark and dreary.
Disney didn't do the franchise any wonders either by sitting on merchandising decisions. And they're pros at that, unfortunately. They should've taken more chances. They should've brought over the comic book at the same time the show debuted in America (or within four to six months afterwards). They should've started planning for a DVD release last year (even though Disney didn't realize until '05 that they could make a good profit off of DVDs of Disney Channel shows). Honestly, they took a 'wait and see' approach, and that doesn't work for most shows. Especially one that's living from season to season."
Bones Justice: "Based upon the adverts, I never would have watched this show because they make it look like a show for girls. [...] With a different advert campaign, Disney probably could have had a bigger audience for this show."
Kagetsu: "I believe Witch has been given a raw deal by Disney and ABCFamily. This is one of the best shows in animation, both story and animation style. It was rushed into production for the first season with little content holding to the original Italian Manga and then continually compared to WinX, a show with a very inane story and characters, and mediaocre animation. The success of most anime shows that a "girl centric" story can be and is popular. Why has Disney tried it's best to kill this show from the beginning by not releasing it properly. It can be seen that Disney won't release shows to DVD just looking at KimPossible. What, their most suceesful animation and they release two movie and (only) two show DVD. They wanted this to fail from the beginning. I've seen a stronger following to Witch than to shows that are getting much better treatment by other production companies."
Kirschy disagrees with Kagetsu, and provides a rather epic response: "I do believe that Americans tend to be a harder sell for magical girl shows to begin with due to their prejudices in that regard.
Most of the licensed shoujo series I can think of off the top of my head (CCS, Tokyo Mew Mew/Mew Mew Power, Wedding Peach,) haven't done nearly as well as stuff like Naruto, DBZ, GITS, or Inuyasha. Even Sailor Moon, for all its popularity probably didn't do as well as the more action oriented shows in America, like DBZ. That's one of the reasons I attribute Pretty Cure's licensing taking almost 2 years, and the fact that Magical Girl Lyrical Nanaho is still unlicensed. Ditto on several other newer shoujo titles which have been our for months now. What that indicates, at least to me, is that shoujo titles have a niche following, but that they aren't as popular generally speaking as shounen titles. The thing you have to remember about anime is, its still a niche market (remember most DVDs only sell about 10-15k copies per disc) so genres and titles that have their own followings can still be a success even though they may not have a huge fanbase, especially if they get airtime on a network.
And I think to a point the same thing is hurting WITCH, at least in the US. Granted it wasn't marketed as well as in Europe and Asia, where it has a huge following in the comics and cartoon, but I think its being hurt almost as much here because it is seen as a shoujo series as the bad marketing. That results in a niche fanbase. And while it has a loyal fanbase, I get the impression Disney views it as a failure because it is a niche market show rather than something popular with the broader general market.
Anyway, I think we can all agree WITCH is faltering in America due to a lot of different causes (some marketing/corporate and some cultural). I think its probably more interesting to try and figure out whether Disney will continue airing or re-airing the series beyond the conclusion of season two in 13 weeks or so even if they don't renew the series for a third season.
It would also be worthy to note that girl-oriented cartoons are still growing as a genre in the U.S. Five years ago, you'd be lucky enough to see one girl-oriented animated show on the air (that being classified as a show with a female as 'the' lead character or characters). We have quite a bit more now. You can attribute that to the fact that broadcasters, especially the Saturday morning ones, who've noticed a decline in total kid viewership in the past decade, have realized that by making shows that girls will love, they can make up for the boys that lost. I mean, look at the five broadcast networks' fall lineups. With CBS joining ABC Kids and 4KidsTV, a majority of them are gearing at least half of their programming towards girls!
The audience for shows like W.I.T.C.H. is there. But for many reasons, the show didn't live up to expectations, and as a result, we've seen very little merchandise as a result.
And I wouldn't necessarily put all the blame for no DVDs for the series on Disney. After all, look at where the three animation outlets stand in general. They still heavily believe in the ideal of releasing only a few videos/DVDs per show as samplers to get buyers (i.e. kids) into watching the show on their networks more. If a show gets any videos/DVDs at all, that is. Releasing entire seasons/series is still a relatively new concept, with only a few shows, most of them older series, getting the bill. I mean, if a network can air certain shows 20 or 30 or 40 times a week with as much ad revenue as they can muster, what's the point of spending money to create DVDs? (But I'll stop there, as that gets into a whole 'nother debate...)"
RayChuang: "I think the failure of W.I.T.C.H. in the US market can be summed up in fact that Rainbow Srl.'s Winx Club made it to air as an animated series first in both the European and US markets and effectively took away much of the potential audience for W.I.T.C.H..
Disney should have gotten W.I.T.C.H. on air by fall 2003 at latest as an animated series--it would have literally cleaned up the market, no contest. But somehow, Rainbow Srl.--when they originally developed what was then called Magical Bloom (pretty much a derivative of the Ojamajo Doremi Japanese anime series)--saw what Disney did and quickly retooled the project into Winx Club and got it on-air in Italy by January 2004 and the USA by June 2004. In short, Disney's marketing department let them down big time...."
ally: "Really, not withstanding how long it took them to form the contracts around Witch, Disney moved faster on the actual production than they should have,,, and still made a decent show that easily snagged me never having seen the Italian manga. Perhaps they shouldn't have micromanaged the writing to meet their ideal democgraphic. It may have moved faster. I've seen shows that I liked right out of the gate, then heard of the program distributer asking to remove the very features that made it unique from future seasons.
The theme of the two show only overlap by a small percentage. While Winx is cute, the story is so much weaker, I can't see how it can take viewers just by being early."
ClowWinx: "But what I don't understand is that the DVD's have been released in the UK and Europe, but not in America. Why show W.I.T.C.H. at 9:30pm if Disney want to make money from it? It seems like the US gets the short end of the stick for every thing."
Galentone: "I don't know about you, but spending 20+ bucks for 3 episodes a DVD isn't my idea of a good release. I'm waiting for season sets in a few years."
Kirschy adds: "Actually I doubt we get the short end of the stick in everything. It actually seems like we get most stuff (like anime, video games, movies, or Sony's PS3) months before Europe usually. I'd say it balances out in the end.
In WITCH's specific case, I imagine the reason the Europeans got a release but Americans didn't has a lot to do with ratings. Remember, WITCH is a massively popular comic in Europe and that gave it a huge ready made fanbase that didn't exist in America. So if the series is even say a third as popular in Europe as the comics are, WITCH would be getting really solid ratings."
So to sum up, let's list the biggest problems plaguing the animated W.i.t.c.h. in America:
1. Winx Club.
2. Lack of merchandise.
3. Aiming squarely at girls, who are then turned off by the dark palette.
4. Some cultural differences.
And 5. Generally bad marketing approaches.
Needless to say, if Disney wants to turn the animated W.i.t.c.h. around to be popular, they're going to need more than just a strong season with Greg Weisman at the helm.
And that's another Podcast. The next one's in two weeks, and as always, you can drop off your comments and suggestions at either my blog at spiderbraids.livejournal.com, or the Winx Club community at community.livejournal.com/winx_club . Thanks for listening.
ETA: Alright, so I got sidetracked by stuff like ironing... and sleeping. But anyways, here's the new podcast. It's my biggest one yet, at 5.75 MB and 25 minutes of talking, most of which is devoted to the topic of W.i.t.c.h.'s struggles.
ETA2: The thread announcing this podcast was deleted from the winx_club community. Currently reposting, and explaining myself.
ETA3: So I'm banned from posting (and viewing, too). Here's the explanation for myself...
So, yesterday I posted up my latest podcast, as well as another thread about ironies I've seen in Winx. Both posts got deleted fairly quickly. I do admit that the ironies thread may have sucked, but with this podcast, I do have some explaining to do (in light of a few emails I got).
Namely, that in the W.i.t.c.h. discussion, I'm merely reading out other peoples' opinions on the problems with W.i.t.c.h. I'm not the one who's saying that 4K's in the toilet, and I'm not the one who's saying that Winx is a show with an inane storyline (I certainly would never say those). The only thing that's 100% me is the bit at the end where I nutshell on what's plaguing W.i.t.c.h.
And I also apologize that the podcast still suggested taking the Sept. 30 start date with a grain of salt... at the time, the promo hadn't aired yet.
ETA4: In light of all the problems I've gotten into with this podcast (plus one extra LATE news item), I have revised this podcast to apologise to everyone I've offended.
Transcript (With apologies to anyone whose feathers I've ruffled)
Ladies and gentlemen, I have some terrible news to report. The day after I originally posted this podcast, I was banned from LiveJournal's winx_club community over several issues. One of these was quoting other people without permission. I personally believe that it is fair game to do so, but I am willing to ask for permission to quote from now on.
Now, enjoy the podcast.
Hello, and welcome to WinxTalk Podcast No. 4, with your host SpiderBraids. Today's topics: A little plot nitpicking, how fairies and witches are different, and the elephant in the room that is W.i.t.c.h. Plus, as usual, news from the Winx world. All this coming up on the podcast.
First, we nitpick Tecna-Avalon. In "Angel of Doom", Tecna was suspicious of Avalon, and shot a Truth Orb at him. While Avalon looked the worse for wear, no dark secrets were revealed. This is part of the aftermath...
[2x09: FG to Tecna: "As hard as this may be for you to accept Tecna, your logic was flawed, and you and your friends owe Prof. Avalon an apology"]
As hard as it is to accept Tecna's logic being flawed, it wasn't the only thing that was flawed in this storyline. It's what surrounded this that was flawed. Let's review, shall we?
First, the spell that Tecna shot at Avalon. Its very nature is that it's designed to reveal an enemy's true nature. Since Prof. Avalon was later revealed to be a fake, it should have revealed that. Also, by the time the episode aired in the US, some of the more astute fans already knew Tecna was on to something, and some of those who didn't still did believe she was right, and of course she was.
Second, after making quite a deal out of the Truth Orb and its nature, they never showed it working as intended. First Palladium stopped Amaryl's demonstration shot from hitting Stella, and then there was Tecna's shot at Avalon. I don't know about you, but when the show gives this much attention to the introduction of a brand new spell, I'd totally expect to see it in action.
Lastly, there's also the issue of Shadows in Bloom, about half a season later. In that episode, Avalon sent Bloom on an astral journey, and it ended with Dark Bloom taking the Codex piece to Darkar's minion. And yet nobody suspected Avalon at all. That includes Tecna, and I thought she'd be thinking, "So, Avalon sends Bloom on an astral journey, and she ends up giving Darkar another piece of the Codex? Maybe I was on to something..."
Lori has mainly addressed the first issue. In an email, she wrote: "It's very possible that Tecna performed the truth orb spell wrong, especially being that she was under a lot of pressure and stress. The girls aren't infallible, after all."
I personally disagree with this opinion. The spell looked very successful. Of course, Lori will probably listen to this and reply, "Well, the witches' Dragonfire trap in Magical Reality Check looked very successful, and Bloom's protection spell on Kiko in that same episode looked very UNsuccessful, and you know what happened then" :\ And of course, there's also the 2nd issue I brought up. Which Lori has addressed thusly: "As for your rule, the spell was effective when Amaryl performed it, so it was effective once before Tecna's mishap. We just didn't see the effects thanks to Palladium stepping in."
Which is pretty much begging the question, if you ask me.
Lori has never addressed the third issue, but over at the Toon Zone Forums, The_Magick_Hat has written thusly: "Frankly, I'm surprised that no one else was suspicious of Avalon until the Big Reveal towards the end of S2. Almost every interatcion with him resulted in something bad happening. You'd think at least Tecna would have retained her original suspicions of him, but then again her accusation of him being wrong was a real blow to her."
Which is pretty flimsy, if you ask me.
snapes_angel wrote: "I wondered about all three points, too. I mean, since they were screwing around with the episodes anyway, since they futzed around with the translation, then mixing the continuity and putting this episode a bit later in the sequence would have made more sense. That is, considering Tecna's suspicions here and her lack of them later. I mean sure, the image of a scorched Avalon was funny, but they don't even mention anything about the spell-casting being skewed."
Now that snapes_angel has mentioned this, I should note that the original version sidesteps at least two of the issues. First, the spell Tecna flung at Avalon was mentioned as being a Plasma Sphere, thereby sidestepping the first two issues. Also, the third issue is at least partially sidestepped. Where Americans hear FG telling Tecna that her logic was flawed, most of Europe heard FG telling Tecna that the well-known prophecy Tecna had based her actions on was written by a comedian, and she adds that just because it's well-known doesn't automatically make it true. That would have given the writers an excuse (a less flimsy one, if not by much) to not make Tecna suspicious again.
Incidentally, like the Truth Orb, neither the trap for the Dragonfire nor the Kiko protection spell existed in the original version of that episode. As Tecna might say...
[2x09: Tecna to FG: "Just coincidence? I think not!"]
Your mileage may vary, and if you've got your own two cents to chip in, reply to my podcast thread. 'Kay?
[1x09: Stella: "Boring, new topic!"]
The 2nd topic of the day is the differences between fairies and witches.
We start off with the REALLY obvious ones. Of course, they have different types of magic, and how they were born is different. Witches go to Cloud Tower. Fairies go to Alfea.
Also, fairies use wings to fly, while witches just levitate around.
Fairies have full-fledged transformation sequences and battle outfits, while the Trix seem to be the only witches with battle outfits.
Now, we get into more specific things...
Fairies got lots of screen time during the season 1 battles, while the witches didn't get any, and of course, I addressed this in Podcast No. 2.
Fairies have convergence magic, and it relies on harmony and cooperation. In other words, working with each other. As for the witches, Flora once asked Griffin why the witches don't pair off in class. Grif replied "Team members can betray one another. So a witch trusts no one but herself."
Of course, Lori has argued that the Trix tend to work together often, and has cited the MegaTrix from the season 2 finale as an example. Still, that comparision makes this next one pretty ironic...
When the fairies had different ideas to defeat the witches at the Cloud Tower spire, they ended up blowing themselves up.
When the witches had different ideas to get rid of Timmy and Sky in the resort realm, they decided to use all their attacks at once. The only reason that attack failed was because Helia showed up.
And I know this one doesn't generalize, which would be pretty ironic considering the nature of these, but it was too good to pass up...
When Musa had a grudge against the witches who attacked her in Spelled, she took it up on random witches who weren't even involved.
[Clip: 2x17: Musa's accusation]
I have many opinions about that scene, none good, but the one most relevant to this discussion? Musa was being extremely racist.
But when Stormy had a grudge against Musa, she didn't take it up on the other fairies, or even the other Winx, she just took it up on Musa (and her dad). At least she knew whom to target.
Obviously there will be more differences than just these. You can post in the relevant thread at the Winx community if you're a member, or you can just post at the Podcast thread at my journal.
[News sting]
And now, news from the Winx world.
Last podcast, I reported that the Winx were getting new powers called Enchantix. The official site winxclub.com has a good picture of Bloom in her Enchantix, plus a new villain for season 3. His name is Baltor, and according to Lori, "He looks like he was in something...something with vampires." Hint, hint? Also, just before press time, winxclub.com has updated with Flora's Enchantix form.
As for when the new season will start, there are conflicting reports. As previously reported in the last podcast, the new season should start in mid-November. However, a thread at the 4Kids.TV Forums says that it'll start on September 30th. This news should be taken with a grain of salt however, because the poster does not cite his or her sources, and a September 30th start would preclude finishing off the reruns of the current season... although Michael's Favorites has noted that 4Kids.TV has run a promo saying that the new season will start this fall.
Less than a day after the original posting, 4Kids.TV ran a promo setting the new start date for September 30th. The promo showed Musa in longer pigtails, and that would make a good topic for my next 'cast.
A reminder of the last stops on the Feeling Groovy Tour, on Saturday 16th September: Crystal Mall in Waterford, Connecticut. Emerald Square Mall in North Attleboro, Rhode Island. Montgomery Mall in North Wales, Pennsylvania. Great Lakes Mall in Mentor, Ohio. Haywood Mall in Greenville, South Carolina. And Miami International in Miami, Florida. All events are from noon to 3pm.
And that's news from the Winx World.
[News end]
[W.i.t.c.h. theme]
"Why are you playing the W.i.t.c.h. theme song?" you might be asking. Well, our last, and biggest, topic for today is the elephant in the room that is W.i.t.c.h. Like Winx Club, W.i.t.c.h. is also a magical girl property from Italy about five girls with magical powers. Although the similarities tend to thin out after this point (for example, W.i.t.c.h. started out as a comic book, rather than animated), it's enough for many W.i.t.c.h. fans to accuse Winx of being a clone. In a recent thread at the Toon Zone Forums, there have been fears that the animated version of W.i.t.c.h. might be cancelled after two seasons, due to ratings problems, and many fingers are being pointed in various directions. One of them is pointing to Winx coming out first in summer of 2004, with W.i.t.c.h. coming out early the next year, thereby taking a huge chunk out of the potential audience. However, many, especially Winx fans, are keen to point out other factors that have contributed to W.i.t.c.h.'s struggles.
Here's a sample of the opinions at the Winx community...
Disclaimer: The following consists almost entirely of me reading out comments posted by other people. To all whose comments I've read, I apologize if I offended you by reading your comment without permission. Also, some of the comments actually disparage Winx, or 4Kids. While I occasionally disagree with some of the edits they've made, I respect that 4K is the main reason this show has a following in the states, and I would never badmouth them, at least when it comes to Winx.
alisonchainsv1: "Well, first off, W.i.t.c.h. was originally aired on Saturday Mornings here as well as cable. Secondly Disney has done a HORRIBLE job promoting their show, while 4Kids has done wonderful at promoting Winx.
You can't go in to Toys R Us with out finding several great Winx Dolls. But you won't find ANY W.i.t.c.h. dolls. Anywhere. Not even the Disney store sells them anymore.
I think that's what it all boils down to. They've just done a terrible job handling it here in the US. You could have the best show on TV, but if it's not promoted properly, no one will watch it and it'll get cancelled."
Lori: "If two shows are good and not on at conflicting times, kids will watch both. It seems silly to blame Winx.
The dark vs. light issue might be a factor. I haven't seen enough W.I.T.C.H. episodes to truly judge.
The channel might be a factor, too. Not everyone has a form of cable. I don't. If it was still on a normal channel, I'd be watching it.
But in my opinion, the biggest problem is how much they changed the show. The books were out in the US for quite a long time before the 1st season started. Kids aren't dumb. They knew the way things were supposed to be, according to the books. Throw this show at them with a lot of major changes and they might not like it. I know I absolutely despise some of the changes. (Blunk. WTF is that sh!t?) Older fans might be able to accept the changes and view the show as its own form, separate from the books, but young fans may not be able to do this. Hell, I have trouble with it! I plan on buying the series on DVD and watching it all to really formulate an opinion on it. I liked some things about it, but hated others."
dreaming_faerie: "I think it's marketing. What has Disney done in the U.S. to show W.I.T.C.H. off? Nothing. I heard of W.I.T.C.H. from a friend after she lent me some comics. Oh, and McDonald's, but kids may not have an attention span to research enough about the series. They're say 'Ooh, cute,' play with it for five minutes, then dump it in the toy chest.
Now, while 4Kids is still in the toilet, it's still doing a good job of marketing Winx. And Winx again gave 4kids a bit of profit from thier last report.
Its not of light and dark and all that, but think about this; when you go into a Wal-Mart or Targets or Toys R Us (well, in the U.S. anyway), what toys do you see in the isle? Winx! No W.I.T.C.H. Disney Stores don't even carry W.I.T.C.H. dolls. If Disney marketed W.I.T.C.H. better, it may have a chance, but Winx was (and I say was because it wasn't on this past Saturday) on at a decent air time and dolls are out, right across from Bratz dolls, where kids can look and want. And there are commericals for Winx.
Also, there are Winx DVDs and gummis out there still. Winx is out there and it has a name. W.I.T.C.H.? Nothing."
stormyserenity: "The reason I don't like the W.i.t.c.h. cartoon is because the art isn't that good. The comics are gorgeous, the cartoon... not that good! It's also darker not in story tone but in coloration on the screen. Also the channel it's on is set to some other time zone than the one I'm in so the commercials don't match and it's not in the TVguide so I never know when it's on and can only catch it by accident! If I could tell when it was on I'd probably watch it.
And I agree, Blunk should not be there and Caleb needs his face-marks back, at the very least. When he turned up playing a guitar in that one ep my suspension of disbelief cracked soooo hard. -_-
(and.. ok honest, I've never got over the disappointment of the theme song not being the one I liked so much on the website. Dumb but true.)
I do still buy every W.i.t.c.h. book, comic and whatnot the moment it hits the bookstore. =) I'm totally a fan. Hooray for magical girls!"
beruche: "- Cable. I just now got cable and have lived 16 years without it. Winx is on regular stations.
- Appeal. You're right - Winx is brighter. The dark colors and such tune kids out and make them declare, "This is boring!" even if it's not. (Been there with kids while W.I.T.C.H. was on.)
- Changes. The older fanbase wanted them to follow the books.
- Copying. I know neither show copied each other, but there are US residents who still think Disney is being unoriginal.
- Characters - Or Lack Thereof. I simply don't find the characters as likable, do you?
- Marketing. The best they did was McDonald's. Do you really want to know where McDonald's toys end up? Hey, I know kids. I remember my sisters McDonald's day and I've seen the adventures of Young Boys and McD's Toys.
Hm. I know more violent kids than you probably do. But the case is still the same."
The original Toon Zone Forums thread goes deeper into the issue.
Disclaimer, part two: Since permission will now be required to quote other people, this may rule out quoting from Toon Zone Forums in subsequent 'casts.
Tommy Lawson: "Well, after noticing the reduction of W.I.T.C.H. to just two airings a week on weekend mornings on Toon Disney's Jetix block has really got me thinking if Disney is ready to just flat out give up on the whole W.I.T.C.H. property in the U.S. entirely. It certainly seems that way based on a lack of merchandise in the U.S., most notably two things IMO- no DVDs of the show being released, and a Game Boy Advance game not out in the U.S. Four Kim Possible games have been released in the U.S. to this point by Disney, 3 for the GBA, and one for the Nintendo DS, but yet, they can't even get out one W.I.T.C.H. game to place right next to the Winx Club game by Konami?
The 10:30 a.m. weekend time slot reeks of a "We're showing this show only because we paid for it, and we've got to show it some time" mentality. If they really were so confident in its success, a prime time airing of the show would be far, far more likely. Right now, it seems like it's in a newly created "Jetix Clearance Bin" just waiting to Disney to show the remaining episodes before giving up on it.
Right now, I feel like nicknaming the W.I.T.C.H. TV show "Disney's She-Ra" because it definitely resembles that show in more ways than one - some of its themes are similar, both TV shows had the challenge of having to appeal to both a boy and girl audience simultaneously, both had merchandising challenges (and in W.I.T.C.H.'s case, virtually non-existent merchandising here in the U.S.), and W.I.T.C.H. right now seems destined to share a similar fate as She-ra here in the U.S. - a good TV show, but still not enough to make the merchandising line a success."
Freedom Fighter: "...it was harder to market W.I.T.C.H. in America for another reason... who they were aiming for as an audience. While normally trying to get both guys and girls (while Winx focused on girls alone) should yield a higher viewership and thus higher ratings, and in turn, bigger merchandising potential... well, despite the fact that the show is gender-neutral, most people who were to make an observation on the show based on pictures and screenshots alone wouldn't see that. They'd think W.I.T.C.H. is supposed to be girl-friendly, especially with five female leads. Sure, the Guardians are like the Winx girls in that they're obsessed with their looks and they're boy crazy, but the comparisons stop there. W.I.T.C.H. was hurt because their potential ratings share was hindered by being on smaller networks, the 'girly stuff' took a backseat to the action most of the time, and it was considerably darker pallette-wise. If anything, most girls love bright and colorful, not dark and dreary.
Disney didn't do the franchise any wonders either by sitting on merchandising decisions. And they're pros at that, unfortunately. They should've taken more chances. They should've brought over the comic book at the same time the show debuted in America (or within four to six months afterwards). They should've started planning for a DVD release last year (even though Disney didn't realize until '05 that they could make a good profit off of DVDs of Disney Channel shows). Honestly, they took a 'wait and see' approach, and that doesn't work for most shows. Especially one that's living from season to season."
Bones Justice: "Based upon the adverts, I never would have watched this show because they make it look like a show for girls. [...] With a different advert campaign, Disney probably could have had a bigger audience for this show."
Kagetsu: "I believe Witch has been given a raw deal by Disney and ABCFamily. This is one of the best shows in animation, both story and animation style. It was rushed into production for the first season with little content holding to the original Italian Manga and then continually compared to WinX, a show with a very inane story and characters, and mediaocre animation. The success of most anime shows that a "girl centric" story can be and is popular. Why has Disney tried it's best to kill this show from the beginning by not releasing it properly. It can be seen that Disney won't release shows to DVD just looking at KimPossible. What, their most suceesful animation and they release two movie and (only) two show DVD. They wanted this to fail from the beginning. I've seen a stronger following to Witch than to shows that are getting much better treatment by other production companies."
Kirschy disagrees with Kagetsu, and provides a rather epic response: "I do believe that Americans tend to be a harder sell for magical girl shows to begin with due to their prejudices in that regard.
Most of the licensed shoujo series I can think of off the top of my head (CCS, Tokyo Mew Mew/Mew Mew Power, Wedding Peach,) haven't done nearly as well as stuff like Naruto, DBZ, GITS, or Inuyasha. Even Sailor Moon, for all its popularity probably didn't do as well as the more action oriented shows in America, like DBZ. That's one of the reasons I attribute Pretty Cure's licensing taking almost 2 years, and the fact that Magical Girl Lyrical Nanaho is still unlicensed. Ditto on several other newer shoujo titles which have been our for months now. What that indicates, at least to me, is that shoujo titles have a niche following, but that they aren't as popular generally speaking as shounen titles. The thing you have to remember about anime is, its still a niche market (remember most DVDs only sell about 10-15k copies per disc) so genres and titles that have their own followings can still be a success even though they may not have a huge fanbase, especially if they get airtime on a network.
And I think to a point the same thing is hurting WITCH, at least in the US. Granted it wasn't marketed as well as in Europe and Asia, where it has a huge following in the comics and cartoon, but I think its being hurt almost as much here because it is seen as a shoujo series as the bad marketing. That results in a niche fanbase. And while it has a loyal fanbase, I get the impression Disney views it as a failure because it is a niche market show rather than something popular with the broader general market.
Anyway, I think we can all agree WITCH is faltering in America due to a lot of different causes (some marketing/corporate and some cultural). I think its probably more interesting to try and figure out whether Disney will continue airing or re-airing the series beyond the conclusion of season two in 13 weeks or so even if they don't renew the series for a third season.
It would also be worthy to note that girl-oriented cartoons are still growing as a genre in the U.S. Five years ago, you'd be lucky enough to see one girl-oriented animated show on the air (that being classified as a show with a female as 'the' lead character or characters). We have quite a bit more now. You can attribute that to the fact that broadcasters, especially the Saturday morning ones, who've noticed a decline in total kid viewership in the past decade, have realized that by making shows that girls will love, they can make up for the boys that lost. I mean, look at the five broadcast networks' fall lineups. With CBS joining ABC Kids and 4KidsTV, a majority of them are gearing at least half of their programming towards girls!
The audience for shows like W.I.T.C.H. is there. But for many reasons, the show didn't live up to expectations, and as a result, we've seen very little merchandise as a result.
And I wouldn't necessarily put all the blame for no DVDs for the series on Disney. After all, look at where the three animation outlets stand in general. They still heavily believe in the ideal of releasing only a few videos/DVDs per show as samplers to get buyers (i.e. kids) into watching the show on their networks more. If a show gets any videos/DVDs at all, that is. Releasing entire seasons/series is still a relatively new concept, with only a few shows, most of them older series, getting the bill. I mean, if a network can air certain shows 20 or 30 or 40 times a week with as much ad revenue as they can muster, what's the point of spending money to create DVDs? (But I'll stop there, as that gets into a whole 'nother debate...)"
RayChuang: "I think the failure of W.I.T.C.H. in the US market can be summed up in fact that Rainbow Srl.'s Winx Club made it to air as an animated series first in both the European and US markets and effectively took away much of the potential audience for W.I.T.C.H..
Disney should have gotten W.I.T.C.H. on air by fall 2003 at latest as an animated series--it would have literally cleaned up the market, no contest. But somehow, Rainbow Srl.--when they originally developed what was then called Magical Bloom (pretty much a derivative of the Ojamajo Doremi Japanese anime series)--saw what Disney did and quickly retooled the project into Winx Club and got it on-air in Italy by January 2004 and the USA by June 2004. In short, Disney's marketing department let them down big time...."
ally: "Really, not withstanding how long it took them to form the contracts around Witch, Disney moved faster on the actual production than they should have,,, and still made a decent show that easily snagged me never having seen the Italian manga. Perhaps they shouldn't have micromanaged the writing to meet their ideal democgraphic. It may have moved faster. I've seen shows that I liked right out of the gate, then heard of the program distributer asking to remove the very features that made it unique from future seasons.
The theme of the two show only overlap by a small percentage. While Winx is cute, the story is so much weaker, I can't see how it can take viewers just by being early."
ClowWinx: "But what I don't understand is that the DVD's have been released in the UK and Europe, but not in America. Why show W.I.T.C.H. at 9:30pm if Disney want to make money from it? It seems like the US gets the short end of the stick for every thing."
Galentone: "I don't know about you, but spending 20+ bucks for 3 episodes a DVD isn't my idea of a good release. I'm waiting for season sets in a few years."
Kirschy adds: "Actually I doubt we get the short end of the stick in everything. It actually seems like we get most stuff (like anime, video games, movies, or Sony's PS3) months before Europe usually. I'd say it balances out in the end.
In WITCH's specific case, I imagine the reason the Europeans got a release but Americans didn't has a lot to do with ratings. Remember, WITCH is a massively popular comic in Europe and that gave it a huge ready made fanbase that didn't exist in America. So if the series is even say a third as popular in Europe as the comics are, WITCH would be getting really solid ratings."
So to sum up, let's list the biggest problems plaguing the animated W.i.t.c.h. in America:
1. Winx Club.
2. Lack of merchandise.
3. Aiming squarely at girls, who are then turned off by the dark palette.
4. Some cultural differences.
And 5. Generally bad marketing approaches.
Needless to say, if Disney wants to turn the animated W.i.t.c.h. around to be popular, they're going to need more than just a strong season with Greg Weisman at the helm.
And that's another Podcast. The next one's in two weeks, and as always, you can drop off your comments and suggestions at either my blog at spiderbraids.livejournal.com, or the Winx Club community at community.livejournal.com/winx_club . Thanks for listening.
